5 Minutes with… Dalia Burde
Dalia Burde launched Avocados and Coconuts a short while after she produced the world’s first episodic series made specifically for the internet. It was obvious to her that there was more to come in that space and room for a business to exist to rethink how moving image could be produced for what was a new medium. So, 11 years ago - after stints at Ogilvy San Francisco and Goodby Silverstein & Partners - Dalia launched Avocados and Coconuts as a creative production agency.
The company boasts creative, production, directorial talent and post, all under one roof. It works direct to client as well as with agencies, and while the nimble approach that Dalia and the team take to the creative and production processes is more commonplace today, it was almost unheard of when the company started.
Speaking of having everything under one roof, Avocados and Coconuts also boasts its very own chocolate factory in its office. Little Burde is Dalia’s hobby-turned-business, a chocolate factory whose bars sell around town and, we imagine, also make for excellent client goodies when they visit the office.
LBB’s Addison Capper caught up with Dalia to find out more.
LBB> First up, tell me about your name! Why Avocados and Coconuts?
Dalia> Why not?! They both tend to draw positive, sun-filled associations and what's more, they are both good fats. But I suppose you want the story? Well, the name came from the subject line of a pre-production email for our first feature-length film and founding project ‘Given’. Our line producer, Heron, titled an email ‘Avocados and Coconuts’ as a catch-all because the subjects of the film had both avocados and coconuts growing in their backyard in Hawaii. The email went on to be one of those super-long chains and when we were looking for a name, she threw that out randomly. It was just the right amount of positivity and levity, which we try to live up to every day. So thank you, Heron!
LBB> You've worked in the production department at agencies like Goodby and Ogilvy. What inspired the launch of Avocados and Coconuts?
Dalia> Before my time working in-house on the agency side of production, I had freelanced in film and commercial production for almost 12 years in both LA and NYC. When I landed on the agency side in San Francisco, I was surprised at how sparse the field was when looking for production vendors. At the time, online video was just starting to poke its head out into the world. This was early 2007, so think video in HTML banners and small little bits on the internet. YouTube was in its infancy and I felt there were no production companies that were focusing on this new emerging medium. Just before leaving New York, I had produced what was considered the first unique episodic series made specifically for the web. I could see there was a lot more coming and felt there was a need for a shop to exist that would rethink how video content could be made to adjust to this new medium.
LBB> A&C is a "creative production agency". The concept of production companies working on creative and agencies working on production is pretty commonplace these days, but you launched over 11 years ago. What was the market like then and why was it ripe for a business like A&C?
Dalia> When we launched 11 years ago, agencies had begun trying to work production into their in-house capabilities with mixed success. There were few production companies tackling both the creative and the post. The roadblock to in-house production at an agency was the fact that the creatives were always looking to work with talent outside of agency walls.
Another factor to the changing world of content was the emergence of really high-quality digital cameras that finally stood up to film in a meaningful way. The RED camera put cinematic visuals within the reach of small crews with no processing costs. We were able to get our hands on two of the first delivered Red Epics, which allowed us to start a company with an elevated production look and with a way smaller footprint. We built the company from the get-go with post capabilities, which was also less commonplace back then.
We decided to invest in the infrastructure from the start so we could have more control of our work, be more competitive cost-wise, and shape what we were making from start to finish. Clients' needs also began to shift. They began needing stuff outside of their quarterly media-bought brand campaigns. Very early on, we started getting requests directly from clients saying they needed a ‘video’ with no real creative brief to speak of, which was a clear sign we needed to add creative services to our capabilities to ensure we could produce something that actually hit. So, that is when Amani King joined the Avocados team as our awesome creative lead. We had met on a project for Apple that we collaborated on while he was a creative director at Eleven.
The soup-to-nuts model was all pretty unique at the time. The model was: client hires agency to come up with the ideas, then agency hires production shop to shoot it, post-production house to edit it, and finishing partners for the last polish. That model can produce very strong work; however, the downside is that if you are a client who now needs 50 pieces of content in a year versus three to four brand TV spots – but your budget does not change significantly – then you have to look for some serious efficiencies. This standard model did not allow for the most time or cost-effective development of content. So, we were first handed the low-hanging fruit but slowly, over time, we have produced our fair share of broadcast spots as well as everything in between.
LBB> How has the market evolved over that time and how has that impacted and evolved A&C as a business?
Dalia> For one, the model that seemed so unique a decade ago has become way more commonplace. The whole classic AOR model has shifted entirely. When we first launched, we were doing mainly small agency jobs and the occasional direct-to-client, so maybe 90/10. Now, it has been reversed to 20/80. Clients are trained now to engage with creative production agencies like ourselves that can deliver a lot of work for their timelines and budgets. It is also pretty common for brands to have in-house creative capabilities now, which allows for a strong collaborative partnership when we work together.
The other part that has progressed is the technology and the access to high-end digital video equipment, which has allowed just about anyone with a bit of means and access to be a ‘production’ company. I think, on the one hand, this has fostered some incredible talent and allowed a more equitable distribution of creative but, on the other hand, it has created a race to the bottom that allows some clients, even those with incredible means, to take advantage of the hungriest team of creators who want a foot in the door. When they ultimately realise they worked for next to nothing and want to ask for more resources, the client (who has gotten used to that budget) tends to move on to find the next hungry young filmmaker. This is a dangerous trajectory for the industry. If it is just about cost, then we all lose.
LBB> Tell us a bit about the company now - how big is it and what capabilities do you have?
Dalia> It depends on the day, really… We have 14 full-time employees but, on any given day, there can be 20 - 30 people including freelancers. We also have five directors on our roster.
We offer what we have termed ‘production-minded creative development’, meaning we know what it takes to produce something, so we are not waiting for a third party to bid it only to find out the idea is not within scope. We always ideate to the scope. As we sometimes like to say, “limitations can be liberating.”
We then produce the content through pre-production, production, and post; throw in our animation capabilities and we are like your swiss army knife for content. We work with trusted outside partners for finishing. We also tend to excel at travel jobs as they were at the core of our founding and we built the capabilities of the company around that. But we are just as comfortable shooting a narrative tabletop 30-second broadcast spot in our studio in SF.
LBB> What kind of client is ideal for A&C and why?
Dalia> One that wants a truly collaborative process and values great communication. If they want to push the creative further, even better. I think clients that do not see the value in diversity of thought in the creative process tend to end up with narrowly defined work.
LBB> Do you remember the first project that you worked on? What did you learn from that?
Dalia> My first project was a Xan Cassavetes music video shot at John Cassavetes and Gena Rowlands’ home in the mid-’90s. It was my first set ever. Two weeks before my 18th birthday, so my bucket of knowledge at that stage was as empty as it gets! Everything was new and fascinating. It would be hard to summarise all that I learned. For starters: I learned what a DP, gaffer, grip, C-stand, C-47, and stinger were. How to run an errand, and how to fix a spot on a wallpapered wall after it has been ripped off with paper tape from a lighting rig. I learned that a camera assistant pulled focus simply by distance. That you shoot things out of order and do it more than once. That work days could stretch on for what seemed longer than there were hours in a day, and that production was the ultimate team sport.
I was the most wide-eyed person on set and doubtful much help. Everything was incredible for me that weekend. I also learned who John Cassavetes and Gena Rowlands were. It was a pretty magical experience, to be honest. I picked up a quarter I found on the ground right outside of the house’s gate and have kept it ever since. I finally got to work in production.
Avocados’ very first project was the aforementioned feature ‘Given’, which led to the formation of the company. Our first client project was a project for Adobe through Goodby Silverstein & Partners, followed by a Columbia spot for Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners. I learned how much we still had to learn. Every project has brought so much knowledge and we have never stopped learning from our work. In fact, it is what I love most about this business; no two projects or work days are ever the same. You have to adapt and learn every time. Which allows for a little bit of that wide-eyed wonder on every project.
LBB> Which recent projects are you particularly proud of and why?
Dalia> We recently completed a campaign for Freshly. It was a fun one – more commercial and narrative-based and it was a great experience with a truly collaborative team on the Freshly side.
With Cruise ‘Poppy & The City’, we were tasked with telling an empathetic ‘hero’s journey’ story about an autonomous vehicle as a ‘new resident’ of San Francisco trying to fit in, without resorting to voiceover or title cards. This was a great creative challenge and collaboration opportunity with the Cruise creative team. The film was also a bit of a love letter to San Francisco that was nice to work on as we emerged from lockdown.
Comcast ‘Olympics’ is a great example of what can be accomplished on very tight timeframes. We only had a few hours with each athlete but we still had to create several Olympic spots for a huge brand. We love Matt Palmer's director’s cut of this piece, where he brought all three stories from the series together.
One of our favourite passion projects to date, ‘Scarlet Medusa’ features meditations on immortality, karaoke, and jellyfish. What more could you ask for?
LBB> What are the big trends in production and creative that are influencing how you make work right now and how you are thinking about the future?
Dalia> The idea of truly expanding our team to a global footprint. While I think it is incredibly beneficial as a creative company to have our studio hub in San Francisco, which allows for so much collaboration and efficiency, we have refined ways to work with talent in other geographic regions by adding to our already super-broad global production network while bolstering our talent in post and creative roles. I’d love to build on this as it also adds to the diversity of ideas.
LBB> You're from Johannesburg - how did you end up in San Francisco working in production?
Dalia> How much time do you have? It was a long journey. I was determined to work in film when I was about eight years old. South Africa in the ‘80s and early ‘90s had no film schools at all and was pretty isolated from the rest of the world due to sanctions. So, I set my sights on moving to America (just your typical immigrant-with-a-dream story). Although my parents did not fully believe me – even though I called the embassy to find out how I could get in and worked to secure a green card – I figured out where I could take the SATs in Johannesburg and applied to colleges and had a visible countdown calendar for 24 months in my room. They were still surprised that I decided to leave right after I graduated high school at 17.
My very generous aunt took me in for the year before college in Los Angeles. She was a costume designer in the film industry and introduced me to her friends and community. I worked for free for three months on anything I could: features, music videos, etc. until I landed my first paid production gig as an on-set PA on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. And, well, one could say the rest is history, aside from a bachelor's degree from Emerson College, seven years of production work in NYC on some pretty epic films including The Royal Tenenbaums and Angels in America. But once I came to SF for a visit, it stole my heart. I had recently produced a shoot for Yahoo in NYC with Ogilvy SF as the agency, so when I headed out here, I reached out to the producer to see if she had production contacts and she asked if I would consider working at Ogilvy. It was a great landing and allowed me a chance to view this industry from another perspective.
LBB> You're "a pioneer of what she believes to be the small wave surfing movement" (according to your bio). First up, tell me about your love of surfing. Secondly, tell me about this movement because it sounds like something I'd enjoy.
Dalia> Maybe I give myself a little too much credit as a ‘pioneer’ or by calling it a movement, but you’ve got to grab the reader's attention on your bio, you know? But I am obsessed with surfing. It really allows me a chance for some meditative alone time in the water. I realised after many years of surfing, I simply prefer small waves. I do not have to be working toward bigger waves to become a better surfer but rather, I can find all the joy I need in small waves. I travelled and filmed around the world with professional surfers and while they were tracking when the swells would hit, I was not-so-secretly hoping we just missed the swell - leaving us with some beautiful two to four foot waves. Big wave surfing has become such a phenomenon that I figured we should focus on those pushing the boundaries on what can actually be surfed on the small side.
LBB> You also have a second business, which is Little Burde! How did you get into chocolate making?
Dalia> I am a little bit of a serial-ideas person - coupled with a fascination with building or making something from scratch. Then, add my love for chocolate and it led me down a long and somewhat expensive road of learning to make chocolate and then investing in too much equipment to classify it as a hobby. It started around the same time as Avocados actually. As I acquired more equipment, slowly over time, I decided that I could justify it to myself if I started an actual brand and sold the chocolate. There is only so much you can consume by yourself and your friends! So, Little Burde Chocolate was born. I worked with a talented designer, Lisa Mishima, whom I knew from my Goodby days, on the branding and, well, three years later, we are in a couple of trendy markets with a write-up in Eater. I’m still not quite sure how seriously to take it all. It is still very much a hobby with a little business mixed in. I do love it.
LBB> The chocolate workshop is in the office of A&C - is there any crossover in business aside from great snacks for clients?
Dalia> I think it is really helpful to have it in the office. First off, it is a brand that we, as a creative company, get to play with. Look out for some content in the works. I mean, the taste testing is a huge added perk for clients and for employees. And the roasting smell - there’s nothing better for morale. It also fulfils another side of running a business that is totally different from the service-based work that we do at Avocados. It is refreshing to have a product that has a set listed price and, when making a sale, you simply need to ask, ‘How many do you want?’ There is no ‘Well, I think it should cost this’ or ‘I only have half the amount but want twice as much.’ So, perhaps it functions pretty well as therapy too!
